tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post1565451257005754636..comments2023-11-05T04:09:53.857-05:00Comments on Something Short and Snappy: The Eye of the World, chapters 14 and 15, in which a dream sequence is actually goodErika The Over Queenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03649072707709302370noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-75628357955150328042014-12-31T12:56:45.903-05:002014-12-31T12:56:45.903-05:00I think the big deal for Rand is not so much "...I think the big deal for Rand is not so much "I was adopted and there is something inherently horrible about that," and more "I was adopted and no-one ever told me and now I'm finding out about it years later and it's a big shock and I don't understand".Phil Pottsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-9119860171755202772014-12-22T19:53:53.533-05:002014-12-22T19:53:53.533-05:00Tedronai's rivalry with the Dragon is based on...Tedronai's rivalry with the Dragon is based on his understanding of the way their universe works--that they're fundamental opposites who balance each other.Drew Humberdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-18174140926592096792014-12-20T19:38:23.944-05:002014-12-20T19:38:23.944-05:00According to the FAQ, anyway. http://wotfaq.dragon...According to the FAQ, anyway. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/164Thomas Keytonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-3411882412608989202014-12-20T19:34:42.588-05:002014-12-20T19:34:42.588-05:00Slavic-accented? Where did I miss that?<i>Slavic-accented?</i> Where did I miss that?Ymfonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-22073290524989475632014-12-17T15:58:07.122-05:002014-12-17T15:58:07.122-05:00I completely missed the fact that the women are al...<i>I completely missed the fact that the women are all magic users and the guys all fighters.</i><br />We do, eventually, get some variance in this. Mostly in the Slave-Owning Imperialist Horrifically-Abusive-Towards-Female-Channellers But At Least It's Gender-Equal IIRC Culture. (Also in the Irish Slavic-accented Fremen, which has one warrior society defined as For Girls, and some of the legendary heroes are women. It takes until literally Armageddon for the Borderlanders to allow women into their armies, though.)Thomas Keytonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-27506407060064342172014-12-16T21:21:31.383-05:002014-12-16T21:21:31.383-05:00Ha, I probably gave Moiraine a lot of slack becaus...Ha, I probably gave Moiraine a lot of slack because she pretty much acts exactly like a Jedi. And she's dealing with a trio of guys who would succumb to the Pick Me Up grenade from <i>Mom and Dad Save the World</i> in about five seconds flat.<br /><br /><br />And I don't recall Nynaeve actually being violent - we're <i>told</i> she hits people, but I'm not sure she ever does in this first book. She's just kind of abrasive. And argues with herself about wanting to be a Jedi Aes Sedai. (Which gives her about three hundred percent more personality and characterization than the entire trio of guys put together.)<br /><br /><br />I completely missed the fact that the women are all magic users and the guys all fighters. Yep, that's a fail right there. (I'm afraid I didn't really credit the trio with fighting skills, even though, you're right, the book said they had them. They were all too thoroughly engaged in finding a light socket to stick their fingers in for me to give them any credit for anything. Okay, Perrin did stop that as soon as he was separated from the other two. I will give him that.)<br /><br /><br />Jordan: so bad at making his protagonists likable (or brighter than a box of rocks) that some readers go off and like the wrong people.<br /><br /><br />I'd much rather have some non-shitty fantasy and space adventure. That isn't full of gender existentialist bullshit, or missing half of humanity.depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-15861435754169959862014-12-16T20:00:20.430-05:002014-12-16T20:00:20.430-05:00Mat is genuinely a terrible person. But it's b...Mat is genuinely a terrible person. But it's both.<br /><br />Even in this first book, though, just the pure gender essentialism pisses me off more than the simple absence of women would have. At this point it's divided pretty purely up into women are magic users, men are mighty warriors (and even though they're a bunch of backwater hicks they are super good at fighting). It would be nice if the man with the destiny as a wizard was maybe not naturally skilled with a sword? And maybe Nynaeve could be pretty good at it instead. Just anything to break up the monotony of the skillsets.<br /><br />And the way that whenever a man thinks about women or a woman thinks about men they are just confused and exasperated with no understanding that everyone is just people...grating.<br /><br /><br />Part of it is my knowledge of how it just goes on and on forever getting more bullshit, I'm sure, but...well.<br /><br />Nynaeve is basically the embodiment of how women are violent and irrational and men are saints for just putting up with them without beating the shit out of them. Even a couple of moment of sterotype girl is too many and I'd rather go without entirely. Moiraine is manipulative and secretive and often for no purpose except to drag the plot out a little more and because that's how women are. I'm glad you liked her but I don't think the narrative cares much for her and that's not a ton of fun to read, either.<br /><br /><br /><br />Lan's silent stoic badass routine isn't tons better. Matt is an asshole. Rand is...well, a chunk of granite. I like Perrin, for much much longer than I should have I continued to like Perrin. He is also a chunk of granite, but a fluffier one? The blatant sexism isn't just bad for the women.<br /><br /><br /><br />It's a background radiation of bullshit and I would much rather read about spaceships and manly men and occasional cardboard l(ust)ove interests and their amazing boobs. But yeah, throw 'em both out.Tanzenlichtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-69501327141723091612014-12-16T19:16:20.765-05:002014-12-16T19:16:20.765-05:00I don't know. Both are terrible. "You, h...I don't know. Both are terrible. "You, half the human race, you're not quite people." "You, half the human race, you only exist/are worthy of note if you're exceptional." Ugh.<br /><br /><br />I'd forgotten that people have said that Jordan gets many, many times worse with his female characters as the story goes on. :\ Comparing single books may not have been fair. Perhaps we should just fail them both.<br /><br /><br />(The women in this book didn't seem too bad. Moiraine was one of the most competent people in the book, as well as one of the most likable. Egwene only had a couple of moments of randomly acting like "a girl" (more like the sexist idea of one). And while Nynaeve is annoying, at least she <i>has</i> a personality, not to mention actual goals. The trio of guys really seemed flat to me and were carrying around the biggest batch of Idiot Balls I think I've ever seen. Especially Rand. V xabj - nf jvgu nyy rivy negvsnpgf - vg jnf n qbjajneq fyvqr engure guna n crefbanyvgl syvc, ohg Enaq'f boyvivbhfarff gb Zng pneelvat gur negvsnpg bs rivy sbe yvxr unys gur obbx yrsg zr guvaxvat gung rvgure Zng unf nyjnlf unq n ubeevoyr crefbanyvgl be Enaq vf fyvtugyl qrafre guna tenavgr. Be obgu.)depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-65102970503024729002014-12-16T16:43:59.677-05:002014-12-16T16:43:59.677-05:00As a reader I vastly prefer when authors imply tha...As a reader I vastly prefer when authors imply that women aren't exactly people by not including them than when they straight out say it and then hit you over the head with it for thousands of pages. There's really...there's a lot of it. <br /><br />Though I think you're probably right, in a grand scheme of things sense, about which is better. Jordan tried. *saddest gold star*Tanzenlichtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-59731682829078901572014-12-16T14:57:20.302-05:002014-12-16T14:57:20.302-05:00On the subject of how sexist this book is, I do wa...On the subject of how sexist this book is, I do want to note that, actually, having women in the book is kind of a good thing.<br /><br /><br />I say this because I just read a book (from the early '90s no less - though space adventure or space fantasy rather than fantasy) that <i>literally</i> had four women in it. Total. Beyond that, every named character, every walk on bit part, every person described in any way was male.<br /><br /><br />Jordan may be fumbling on how he handles his female characters, but at least he doesn't see the world as almost entirely male. It's a bit cookies for not sucking as bad as he could have, but after reading this other book, I feel like he deserves at least the acknowledgment that he was trying. (Three at least quasi-main female characters and named and existing female characters most of the places the main characters go isn't too bad representation-wise. Could be better still, but, hey, it's not "my galaxy has exactly four women in it!".)depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-26148914953044834032014-12-16T13:40:51.084-05:002014-12-16T13:40:51.084-05:00Ah, but the opinions of the Two Rivers folk seem t...Ah, but the opinions of the Two Rivers folk seem to be pretty much the opinions of everyone, except those near the Blight. (And news of the False Dragons seems to travel just fine, so why is the Blight nearly a myth in Two Rivers when a country fell to it in the last...however old Lan is supposed to be?) And why doesn't news from the Blight have more of an effect on people's opinions outside of Two Rivers? The consistency of opinions almost seems to argue for better communication rather than less. (And there's the weird fact that information doesn't seem to really follow the usual Winners Write the Histories. It appears that the Aes Sedai must have shared their part in the breaking of the world. And, after several thousand years, everyone agrees on what happened? And are right? (Not that that's a flaw unique to these books.))<br /><br /><br />And the explanation for the Whitecloaks is basically that they're an invasion force? Or a very poor diplomatic avoidance of being flat out invaded? (Let us wander your country killing your people or we'll invade and kill even more of them. Rather like that one city/town's deal with them.) This country doesn't do a very good job of protecting it's people. Between the threat of the Blight and the Whitecloaks and their country, I'd think this country would be desperate to form an army for protection!<br /><br /><br />I don't know. The world building just didn't really come together for me. There were too many things that seemed like they should've effected other things, but apparently didn't. (Like the cursed city.) And, like I said, everyone was too consistent in their opinions and too in agreement (an apparently accurate) about stuff that happened a really long time ago.<br /><br /><br />Honestly, though, if the characters had been gripping, I'd probably care less. But most of our heroes were just too bland (or annoying), and too prone to juggling Idiot Balls. And the whole explanation for why stuff keeps happening to them came way too late to save it. "You three have the power of plot contrivance!" Oh, well, okay then. (I suppose that would've been okay if it had been foreshadowed in some way. As would some of the other plot contrivancy things.)<br /><br /><br />If the story were about Moriaine and Egwene (who is not reduced to doing random stupid things because she's a girl), I'd probably ignore most of the things that irked me. But following bland dimwits across the countryside just didn't do it for me. Oh well. (And, yes, they may get better and the world building may get better, but Book One didn't inspire me to read Books Two through... Fourteen? Fifteen? However many there are.)depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-60779954705625353982014-12-16T01:27:49.540-05:002014-12-16T01:27:49.540-05:00The Aes Sedai are too powerful to throw out and to...The Aes Sedai are too powerful to throw out and too powerful to be trusted, especially since they don't act in *your interests* but in their own, which may include sacrificing you for the greater good as they see it. (Also note, though, that we've only actually seen people's views of the Aes Sedai in a small slice of the world. In the North, the Aes Sedai are loved and respected because without them, the North would have fallen to the Blight's forces by now.)<br />As for the Whitecloaks... this is a world where authority is crumbling and distances are long. The Whitecloaks have their own country and can field large armies and if you piss them off, they may well kill you before help can come.<br />As for the situation with the Blight... basically, this is like the situation in Europe in the Middle Ages, where news travelled slowly and especially to backwaters and where no one in the Two Rivers has seen a Trolloc in nearly 2000 years. Surely the Trollocs all died in the Trolloc wars or we would have seen them by now, right?John Bilesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-10158919528368454732014-12-14T13:37:42.158-05:002014-12-14T13:37:42.158-05:00"They return to the inn where Perrin reports ..."<i>They return to the inn where Perrin reports that Nynaeve from back home has caught up with them, having bullied the ferryman into rowing her across the river after Moiraine obliterated his ferry.</i>"<br /><br />See: <i>True Grit</i>.bekabotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-50966745614338338932014-12-13T13:54:33.604-05:002014-12-13T13:54:33.604-05:00And a lot of the attempts at characterization just...<i>And a lot of the attempts at characterization just felt weird, like Rand's persistent thing about his dad. Why are you flipping out about this, dude?)</i><br />I'm wondering now if this is a legacy from an earlier draft where people were more scared of the Aiel. Rand is half Aiel, and the Aiel should be continent-wide bogeymen after the Aiel War, so maybe he's latching on to Tam's upbringing to prove his identity as a Two Rivers-ian? Except that since anti-Aiel racism only shows up in isolated incidents (except in Cairhien, and even that only lasts a few books) until Rand gets them on his side it's just left hanging there along with the Whitecloaks' inexplicable international influence.Thomas Keytonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-44145661306691696772014-12-13T13:05:19.331-05:002014-12-13T13:05:19.331-05:00Having now actually read the book, I think you'...Having now actually read the book, I think you're understating it. The Whitecloak approach seems designed to drive <i>everyone</i> into the hands of the Dark One.<br /><br />And I am really confused as to how this world spawns so many groups that don't quite have official power and whom everyone hates. The Aes Sedai are seen as dangerous to bad by nearly everyone, yet some how manage to persist, despite having to draw their ranks from said everyone. (They're an all female Jedi Order, far as I can tell, except they're utterly distrusted, except near the Blight.) The Whitecloaks do not have any authority in this country, yet act as if they do, and are your average Lawful Righteous Sadists. But, despite no one but actual Darkfriends (or people who've come face to face with Trollocks) believing in Trollocks and such they're allowed to wander the countryside harming people.<br /><br />Actually, I am also bloody confused as to what people believe in this world. Actual monsters are taking over countries along the blight in the lifetime of some of these characters, yet a lot of people don't seem to quite believe in them. The only groups trying to fight evil are seen as evil. (And one is.) There's a lot of random magic. And people who can channel the One Power die without Aes Sedai help. (For some reason.) There are Darkfriends <i>everywhere</i>.<br /><br />It just never really became a coherent whole. And it felt painfully like the chronicals of a D&D game. (Though I might not have minded if I liked the characters better, but there wasn't enough life in most of them. And a lot of the attempts at characterization just felt weird, like Rand's persistent thing about his dad. Why are you flipping out about this, dude?)depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-73021061586103815822014-12-13T05:13:13.247-05:002014-12-13T05:13:13.247-05:00(it would be terriers, not cats. cats are for ladi...(it would be terriers, not cats. cats are for ladies) (no, but really)Tanzenlichtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-27907456013347715942014-12-11T21:03:42.875-05:002014-12-11T21:03:42.875-05:00Even Rand's angsting over his father still bei...<i> Even Rand's angsting over his father still being his father - when no one had said otherwise and it's highly unclear whether anyone would see it otherwise - had that same not-quite-right vibe.</i><br />Having finally finished Tor's re-read of the series, all I can guess is that Jordan <i>really</i> wanted his foreshadowing for an upbringing-versus-inherent-qualities resolution to be firmly established.Thomas Keytonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-16010882082273659002014-12-11T20:58:26.154-05:002014-12-11T20:58:26.154-05:00We got a bath scene a la The Fellowship of the Rin...We got a bath scene a la The Fellowship of the Rings, but while those characters had only a vague idea of the dangers, these characters have had their village half destroyed.<br /><br />Seriously. At that point in FotR, the forces of evil were represented by one or two mysterious black figures, sneaking around and hiding from any powerful good guys. In <i>this</i> book, we already have a literal army of carnivorous monsters plaguing the countryside and bent on mayhem. You were being openly chased by a winged, soul-sucking demon last night, people! You need to focus! No jolly pranks right now!<br /><br />And aren't we supposed to be worried about the ferryman and all those other people our heroes passed on the way here? Might it not be a good idea to <i>somehow</i> tip off the Children of the Light to the marauding monsters nearby...maybe without mentioning that they're chasing our heroes specifically? They may be fanatics and all, but I'm assuming they're well-armed fanatics--are they not competent to send out patrols and maybe save a few peasants from becoming Trolloc chow?Anton_Matesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-27337807258538758682014-12-11T15:37:48.473-05:002014-12-11T15:37:48.473-05:00That would be even better.
You know, a lot of th...That would be even better.<br /><br /><br />You know, a lot of the scenes in this have felt miscopied. Like the familiar elements of the trope are there, but the circumstances aren't quite right or things are just a little bit out of order or something. Here Mat does what lots of other characters have done, but for solely for the lols. We got a bath scene a la The Fellowship of the Rings, but while those characters had only a vague idea of the dangers, <i>these</i> characters have had their village half destroyed. Even Rand's angsting over his father still being his father - when no one had said otherwise and it's highly unclear whether anyone <i>would</i> see it otherwise - had that same not-quite-right vibe.depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-29172461494347026252014-12-11T02:13:13.847-05:002014-12-11T02:13:13.847-05:00(About the only time it works is with actual trick...(About the only time it works is with actual trickster gods. Because they're assholes anyway.)<br /><br />And trickster gods usually face consequences for it, unless they only ever trick poor mortals who can't retaliate. Hermes had to learn to play nice with the other gods and only play pranks in the cause of justice (or at least the cause of making Zeus happy, which is the same thing as justice at least 22% of the time.) Loki didn't, and suffered for it.Anton_Matesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-60915840657496332452014-12-11T02:01:42.988-05:002014-12-11T02:01:42.988-05:00If the group were being chased by the Children of ...If the group were being chased by the Children of Light and Mat pulled this as a distraction/delaying tactic, it would work much better.<br /><br /><br />Or if the Children were chasing some <i>other</i> poor soul. Then Mat could actually be motivated by altruism, which would make him a lot more sympathetic and might explain why people put up with his mischief.<br /><br /><br />Seriously, there's like forty scenes in cartoons and video games where the hero exploits a slingshot and a bunch of barrels to do something worthwhile. Just copy them.Anton_Matesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-46743713646245760902014-12-10T19:52:36.379-05:002014-12-10T19:52:36.379-05:00I could easily have gotten them confused, it's...I could easily have gotten them confused, it's been years since I've read these. On the other hand, if Demandred was the jealous one, and Tedronai was the despairing one, then Tedronai's behavior makes even less sense than I thought.Kaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-26087820223130602962014-12-10T06:35:52.748-05:002014-12-10T06:35:52.748-05:00The Whitecloak approach would simply drive every c...The Whitecloak approach would simply drive every channeler to the hands of the Dark One, enabling him to field channeler-supported armies to trash and burn civilization while no one else had any to fight back with. It would also ensure that you would have periodic unstoppable outbreaks of male channelers rampaging with no other channelers to stop them.John Bilesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-10898839609062613372014-12-09T21:37:58.372-05:002014-12-09T21:37:58.372-05:00Is it a problem with protagonist-centred morality ...<i>Is it a problem with protagonist-centred morality or just that comedy's really hard?</i><br /><br /><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br /><br />Sometimes authors forget that what's funny in a Bugs Bunny cartoon isn't at all funny when you're dealing with real people who can be actually harmed or killed. (Rowling suffered from that. A lot.) Sometimes authors don't do a sufficient job of setting up the target of a nastier prank as deserving of it, or the audience and the author disagree about who's a deserving victim, or the circumstances are wrong, or...<br /><br /><br /><br />Jordan seems to have a mix of all of the above here. Barrels are dangerous. That the Children of Light are bad guys isn't sufficiently established. And there's no reason - beyond random malicious "fun" for Mat to do this. In fact, there's a whole lot of reason for him <i>not</i> to call attention to him and his friends.<br /><br /><br />If the group were being <i>chased</i> by the Children of Light and Mat pulled this as a distraction/delaying tactic, it would work much better.depizannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2946534773407276339.post-41431549923692650772014-12-09T20:23:00.244-05:002014-12-09T20:23:00.244-05:00ARGH.
The thing is, this could actually work, prov...ARGH.<br />The thing is, this could actually work, provided we got to see Lews Therin and Elan Morin Tedronai's interactions that spawned such behaviour. Without that it just feels contrived. (Although I think you're getting your Forsaken confused - iirc it was Demandred who was jealous of Lews Therin Telamon. Elan Morin turned evil out of despair at the endless pointless repetition of it all.)Thomas Keytonnoreply@blogger.com